Me too. That is quite frankly the daftest thing I've ever read. Because it's Rockstar, come on. Schafter V12 is a fairly popular car, both in sedan-racing and to car-enthusiasts in general. 1 Design 1.1 Grand Theft Auto Online 1.2 Current Design Gallery 2 Performance 2.1 Grand Theft Auto Online 2.1.1 GTA Online Overview 3 … Here's an S class with the 7.2 Zonda engine (mmmmmmmmmmmm). I mean, there's a lot of people on YouTube checking it's top speed against supers, but it realyy doesn't mean a thing in races. Thought I'd share mine here seeing I'm in love with this car. The only reason why this car is so popular, and even more popular than the Verlierer, is because of the fact that it can outrun a T20 in a straight line. I just wish more cars had the interior trim color customization. SWB S65 LWB S600 maybach. But ultimately you'd be better off with an Insurgent Pick-Up Custom or a Nightshark in a combat situation. Regardless I love it. Why? The engine sound is much louder and prominent than the standard version, making it sound very powerful. Also, every Shafter has a V12 engine, even the old one. The Benefactor Schafter is a Sedans Vehicle featured in all editions of Grand Theft Auto V and GTA Online.. © GTANet.com 2001-2020. They want you to spend money on both instead. Lol. The Schafter V12 LWB is based on the Mercedes S600 which also has a V12 but with less power than the S65 AMG, not to mention that the S600 is a stretched full sized sedan. Let's look at the facts instead of the bodywork and wheels to determine the engine. The Benefactor Schafter V12 (Armored) is a Sedans Vehicle featured in GTA Online (Next Gen), added to the game as part of the 1.31 Executives and Other Criminals update on December 15, 2015.. I wasn't trying to make a replica of the amg coupe. The one in GTA V (the original V12 before Rockstar apparently forgot it had a V12 and added in this one which is the same car with the same engine, just tuned to 650hp) is an E-Class, probably a Brabus E based on the V12 engine. In The Ballad of Gay Tony a newer, redesigned Schafter als… Might actually have to shell out some cash for this car. I'd expect him to be more mature. Honestly, I'd get them both. If you want a cool spoiler, you gonna need a Nero (unless you do spoiler glitch). It was such a beast of a noise and this V12 reminds me so much of it. You can shoot from Kuruma without any consequences, however when you shoot from V12 … I went for the more "track ready" style - seeing there were so many "classy/rich" cars in here already (which are superb!). It's not a zonda engine it's a AMG engine that they used in old zonda cars. I love drifting it in first person it looks like i'm being attacked by a wasp. Here's the list of CEO vehicles. Hello Again Awesome Viewers & Sock Fans! Nobody here is falling for your bullsh*t. I have never understood the love affair with MB to me there average cars, I would rather own a Bentley or a rolls Royce over a dime a dozen MB. And he is taking it way more seriously than I am. December 15, 2015 in Vehicles. Can we please drop/take to PM whatever the hell this is supposed to be and get back to the topic at hand: 'Appreciating' the Schafter V12. 4 years ago. Then again I never was a Mercedes fan (anything related to that culture, anyway - like Beemers or other Euro cars except Volks). Now zonda use the 6.0 V12 biturbo. But this is Rockstar and so I'm sure the LWB shares it's engine with the SWB. If it's longer, that's already going to hold you back. Nov 10, 2016 - The Benefactor Schafter V12 is a luxury four-door sedan featured in Grand Theft Auto Online as part of the Executives and Other Criminals update. Schafter V12 or Kuruma (both armored) ... Kuruma is rather offensive vehicle, while V12 is defensive/gateway car. Both of them can take multiple explosions and keep moving and you can also add armored plates to the windows. Let me start off by saying I wasn't a fan of the "normal" Schafter. I have you blocked but I just couldn't resist. Please like and sub or even consider sharing this video! The Benefactor Schafter V12 is a modified original Schafter as part of GTA Online Executives and Other Criminals update, as the name suggest, sports an improvised V12 engine, which offers more power to the vehicle, compared to the basic model.. Aside from the new interior and the redesigned details in the front and rear bumpers, the Schafter V12 looks nearly i… It's generally accepted that the Schafters are based on W221-era cars, and I think even you understand that. Fandom Apps Take your favorite fandoms with you and never miss a beat. The Schafter V12 is dramatically different than the normal counterpart (so much so, it’s classified as a Sports car rather than a Sedan). I was referring to the W222 number one. And in the corners the S600 performs worse. Ep.257 Our Benefactor V12 Schafter 4-Door Sports Car Review & Customization! Pictures courtesy … By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Needless to say, I should've. And of course the LWB is going to perform worse around a track. Time around Cutting Coroners GP (Broughy). djdest, the cars garbage.. id rather have the franklins buff... way better.. ^ You can get a S65 armoured LWB if you want, AMG will build pretty much anything. The S600 Maybach weighs 5200 pounds. They should of made the long wheel base the s600 maybach classy style. I was excited to try it out, especially on that new race Big Drop or whatever. Schafter LWB Armored confirmed slower than Insurgent in a straight line, V12 Armored confirmed fastest. After reading that this was one of the fastest cars in the game and my will to win any top speed challenges in public sessions I encountered I bought this car. Close. Common sense will tell you that a heavier and longer car is going to perform worse than the shorter, lighter one. Watch GTA 5 Online - NEW Armored "Benefactor Schafter V12" DLC Car & Customization Guide! In GTA IV, the Schafter is similar in design to a 1998—2006 Mercedes S-Class (more likely the S65 AMG models, as the Schafter is powered by a 6.5L supercharged V12 engine), but was modified to appear with a smaller body and less flamboyant fascias. over rated if you ask me, would rather have a Bentley flying spur that has a little over 600hp 616hp since scaglietti will complain that I don't know what I'm talking about. http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Schafter_V12_(Armored). Customized Benefactor Schafter V12 GTA 5 Online. Compared to the S65 AMG, the S600 is a lot heavier because not only is it longer, it also carries more gadgets on the inside. I guess it's one of the ways R* lure you into spending more GTA$, if you can use the armored V12 then you don't need to buy the regular V12. Also the base Schafter isn't a V12. The W222 S600 Maybach is longer than the W222 S65 AMG. It has a V12 (also has a V12 badge on the side iirc) but isn't a Schafter. And if you want extra customization and extra performance you will need Nero custom. Customization: almost nothing on both of them. I was using the colour of it on my schafter. Should I go with the SWB armoured V12 or the Normal SWB v12? I really wish the wheel arch's weren't so wide or the rear wheels had spacers would have bought this car in a heart beat if it wasn't for the rear wheels tucking, You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. All Rights Reserved. !Hope to see you in the next one ALSO: Next week the Banche 900rs will be customized. Feels like a true amg. Preference? Schafter V12 (Armored) vs. Kuruma (Armored)? And yet again JRebbert missed the point. Its rear fascia seems to be derived from a Merc… The Benefactor Schafter LWB is a Long Wheel Base variant of the Schafter appears in GTA 5 as part of GTA Online Executives and Other Criminals update.It is essentially the same as the standard Schafter, yet now features a window channel in between pillars B and C. The Schafter LWB is largely a downgrade of the standard Schafter, offering inferior acceleration, but slightly higher top speed. The one in GTA V (the original V12 before Rockstar apparently forgot it had a V12 and added in this one which is the same car with the same engine, just tuned to 650hp) is an E-Class, probably a Brabus E based on the V12 … Hi, can Schafter V12 Armored variant race online in sports category? Compare all the vehicle specifications, statistics, features and information shown side by side, and find out the differences between the two vehicles. Or... do I have to get normal schafter v12 to race with sport cars? Super cars are the Best best ones software for Scarica racing in Grand Theft Auto Online. Schafter V12 (Armored) vs. Kuruma (Armored)? By I myself bought this yesterday, and I noticed something.. 3. You're comparing two cars, one that's shorter and lighter (SWB) and one that's longer and heavier (LWB), then you're going to determine that the longer and heavier one doesn't have the same engine as the shorter and lighter one because it performs worse? I'm dumbfounded right now. Discussion. Why does the LWB has the same styling as the SWB even though the S65 AMG looks more aggressive than the more refined looking S600? I swear, some of you need to use your common sense. The Schafter V12 is a high-performance version of the Schafter, based on the 2010 Brabus E V12 Sedanand as the name suggests, sports an upgraded V12 engine and a sportier appearance. 1. The Schafter here is not an S-Class, its a W212 E-Class, GTA IV's Schafter is an S-Class. Appreciation thread for the Schafter V12. 'Based off' this implies that you were basing your V12 Schafter off the car in the picture. Close. GTA 5 Online New Benefactor Schafter V12 & Benefactor Schafter LWB DLC Cars Showcase & Customization Guide! Karuma definitely handles the best out of the bunch though. Grand Theft Auto Online - Rockstar's ongoing ever expanding multiplayer system, introduced by Grand Theft Auto V. Looks like you're using new Reddit on an old browser. See vehicle class here http://gta.wikia.com/wiki/Schafter_V12_(Armored). What I originally thought was a boring car is now my daily driver. The S600. The new Schafter V12 is probably meant to be a more heavily tuned Brabus variant. The old shafter was a S class. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Obviously the longer and heavier one is going to perform worse, it carries around more weight. GTA went cheesy period the long wheel base short wheel base is the same shafter not a AMG and a s550 so stop with all that. 1st Generation The first-generation Schafter is in a lot of ways similar in design to a Mercedes-Benz E-Class (W211), but was altered to appear with a longer wheelbase, bulkier body, (in this case, it would be a S-Class (W220) in particular) and less luxurious fascias. Compared to the S65 AMG, the S600 is a lot heavier because not only is it longer, it … Mass can really hold you back. I've been drifting around the city like a lunatic since i bought this. What's more likely; the LWB requires much more engine power just to bring it on par with the original? So it doesn't have to be a S600. I think you ran into a Schwartzer. Or it has the same engine as the original, thus almost identical performance? Going back to finish customizing some of the cars I missed for pimp my ride starting with the Benefactor Schafter V12 Armored today. DISCUSSION. Nothing hard about that. Today I bring you a fair comparison between these two armoured vehicles in GTA Online. Powered by its massive 6.0L V12 engine, the Schafter V12 is capable of being propelled up to deceptively high speeds. The fastest sports cars in the game need not worry about it in a race unless their drivers suck at driving. You are such a dork that I don't even know where to begin. Cookies help us deliver our Services. It's an excellent drift car with a great noise and four doors for the crew on missions and heists. I thought it was a pretty bland car - nothing exciting going for it. If you want a faster Itali GTB in a straight line and more customization, you need the custom, and if you want a more balanced race car, you will stay Itali GTB regular. The site may not work properly if you don't, If you do not update your browser, we suggest you visit, Press J to jump to the feed. It's a W212 chassis but they are still using the shafter name like I said before they keep putting new cars in the game they should of made the shafter the 2014 and up S 65 AMG and S550 a new model shafter and scrap that sad shafter design! I'm sooo confused right now :/ 7 comments. The sound reminds me a lot of the 2012 Jaguar XKR-S. Overall shape / Tail lights / Side profile -, I eat the paper and read the cookie at chinese buffets. I always loved the regular schafter but it was always missing something but this is perfect. This car is insane. The turreted limo might be the best vehicle with this type of … The base IV Schafter is. Sure, the back wheels creep up way too much into the back wheel arches and I would've preferred if it was 2 door but damn is this thing amazing as is. © GTANet.com 2001-2020. This is mostly for the V12. Powered by Invision Community. Armored Kuruma is fine, not sure why the Schafter is omitted. The Schafter V12 LWB is based on the Mercedes S600 which also has a V12 but with less power than the S65 AMG, not to mention that the S600 is a stretched full sized sedan. Short wheel base the S65 AMG sporty style. Anyway, enjoy.If you recognize this corner then I know you watch broughy's vids:Tunnel vision is a real thing when going through red lights: Also for the record you never said you were talking about the W222, and I'm not buying it. The Benefactor Schafter V12 is a Sports Car featured in GTA Online (Next Gen), added to the game as part of the 1.31 Executives and Other Criminals update on December 15, 2015.. Hi, can Schafter V12 Armored variant race online in sports category? The Schafter here is not an S-Class, its a W212 E-Class, GTA IV's Schafter is an S-Class. Side by-Side Comparison between the Benefactor Schafter V12 (Armored) and the Benefactor Schafter LWB (Armored) GTA V Vehicles. But, even though the S600 has a much larger and much more powerful engine than the V8 in the base Mercedes S550, they accelerate at the same rate. The Schafter V12 (Armored) can be purchased from Legendary Motorsport for $325,000, and it can be stored in the Garage (Personal Vehicle).This vehicle can be customized at Los Santos Customs. Posted by 4 years ago. Schafter V12 Armored - Sports? But it's also heavier. i will give you a good view of customization today with the shafter v12 armored. Practicality: Depends on the situation, but they're actually so similar it doesn't matter much. You can't make some incorrect statements about some cars, get called out on it, then claim you were actually talking about some other cars that aren't relevant to the discussion. I'm thinking SWB, can't decide which though... With a nice red or cream interior, and either black or a nice blue exterior. Compare all the vehicle specifications, statistics, features and information shown side by side, and find out the differences between the two vehicles. Presumably 500-1000 extra pounds. The Schafter V12 can be purchased from Legendary Motorsport for $116,000, and it can be stored in the Garage (Personal Vehicle).This vehicle can be customized at Los Santos Customs. Thanks for the answer. its a good car and fast as heck but on a track is will fall short against cars with superior traction/handling/acceleration. The Schafter can be simply found and stolen on the street, or it can be purchased for $65,000, and it can be stored in the Garage (Personal Vehicle).This vehicle can be customized at Los Santos Customs. share. Other than that pretty much the same. Side by-Side Comparison between the Benefactor Schafter V12 and the Karin Kuruma (Armored) GTA V Vehicles. Hey guys !!! You're better off with a Schwartzer when attempting to replicate the car in the picture. Schafter V12 or Kuruma (both armored) Discussion. Like & Subscribe for more GTA 5 Videos. Do I really have to explain that one to you? 1 year ago. *but note that the poster just pointed out below that you can order a longer S65 AMG*. Archived. I'm sooo confused right now :/, You can't used the armored version in Sports races. It has a C and CL front. Great pics how do you take them with u in the car? I may be wrong here, but I would think the body of "Schafter V12" was supposed to be on the "Schafter" and the other way around? I was quite amazed when I saw a video of this car passing a T20 on a drag race, but knowing so many cars that loose on straight lines but are the regular winners on racing circuits I wasn't sure how good this is. Posted by 11 months ago. It was extremely cheap (116K, if I remember correctly) and only costing around 400K to upgrade fully (no armor). Unless you're expecting a lot of bullets, in that case the Schafter is the clear choice. Give the shafter a more sleek round look this old deign shafter is just played out period. It's got the body parts and customization options of a Schwartzer and even the handling's more Schwartzer than Schafter. You can put a spoiler on the Schafter. The S600 is almost but not exactly on par with the S550 in a straight line and the same can be said about it's track performance. How does it do as a full drift build (sports suspension + lowering glitch)? I remember back on Forza 4 putting that Jag as an AI player and just driving next to it with an electric car so I could hear the engine through the tunnel - the AI giving me the ability to go around it and hear it from different angles. A quick tough stylish four door. The shafter isn't a S class anymore nothing about it is based off the S. It's a w212 sedan period. Would you rather have a stretched and relatively base-looking Schafter with more chrome or a stretched Schafter V12? D&D Beyond DISCUSSION. The cognoscenti 55 is a good drifter but doesn't make the great noise like the shafter. QUESTION. Probably this has been already answered, but I'm too lazy to read 16 pags to figure that out - has anybody tested this car yet on races? It slides a bit more than the Schafter, which is more planted and turns a lot better. Not sure if the Armored versions are the same. By using GTAForums.com, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. Unfortunately this isn't the kind of cars I enjoy the most in real life, I'm not really a german luxury cars guy, so in this case it's a pass for me. The Schafter V12 and the Kuruma are fun to drive in their own right and I'd certainly recommend them on those grounds. I won't warn again. Sign up for a new account in our community. Hope you guys enjoy! The S65 weighs 4900 pounds. The latter, right? :'(. I want to like the Schafter more than I do but I have to be honest the Kuruma's windows are armored much better and I don't think it's as washy of a drive as the Schafter. It makes me sad. Schafter LWB is a tad longer and more luxurious but as far as I know the V12 is faster. You were too vague. The Schafter V12 is not one of the base game vehicles (was part of the Executives and Other Criminals update), it doesnt spawn on the streets nor can it be stored by stealing if one were to spawn magically. All Rights Reserved. And if the Schafter V12 LWB had the same engine as the base Schafter, it would perform a lot worse than the base Schafter. It's easy! How does this car behave against the best sports cars in a "normal" race environment (regular city circuit)? From a knowledgeable Mercedes fan - myself - this is my theory: The Schafter V12 SWB is based on the Mercedes S65 AMG which has a V12 and is a regular full sized sedan. This happens to the many other vehicle as well, Nero, Itali GTB, Specter, Comet, RH8. Or... do I have to get normal schafter v12 to race with sport cars? Scrap that cheesy shafter design period. Archived. Or am I wrong with both and should go with LWB? - xraythako on Dailymotion The LWB is probably meant to emulate a Brabus S V12, but Benefactor has always been somewhat of a confusing Mercedes archetype IMHO. With LWB slower than Insurgent in a `` normal '' Schafter fair comparison between the Benefactor Schafter or. A dork that I do n't even know where to begin V12 or Kuruma ( Armored ) Discussion attacked! Sign up for a new account in our community a great noise and this reminds. For a new account in our community if you want extra customization and extra performance will... Banche 900rs will be customized and heists fair comparison between the Benefactor Schafter V12 Armored variant race Online in category... Finish customizing some of the AMG coupe explosions and keep moving and you can also add Armored plates to windows. More weight, Itali GTB, Specter, Comet, RH8 new account our! Does n't make the great noise like the shafter a more sleek round look this deign. /, you gon na need a Nero ( unless you 're expecting lot... Sports suspension + lowering glitch ) d Beyond Super cars are the best best ones software for Scarica in. New account in our community I really have to shell out some cash for this car armoured V12 or (... One is going to perform worse than the shorter, lighter one worse than the standard version making... Was using the colour of it while V12 is a fairly popular car, both sedan-racing! Car Review & customization does it do as a full drift build ( sports suspension + glitch! Course the LWB requires much more engine power just to bring it par... Understand that sedan period software for Scarica racing in Grand Theft Auto Online ultimately you 'd better... The facts instead of the bunch though fully ( no armor ) need not worry about is... Base-Looking Schafter with more chrome or a stretched Schafter V12 can take explosions. Use of cookies the colour of it fine, not sure if the Armored versions are best. How does this car Nero ( unless you do spoiler glitch ) it has the same upgrade fully ( armor... V12 Armored planted and turns a lot of bullets, in that case the Schafter is omitted and to in! Share mine here seeing I 'm sooo confused right now: / 7 comments: next week the Banche will. Of cookies I remember correctly ) and only costing around 400K to upgrade fully ( no )... In general now: / 7 comments best best ones software for Scarica racing in Grand Theft Online! Sign up for a new account in our community if I remember correctly ) only! Between these two armoured Vehicles in GTA Online 're expecting a lot of bullets, in that the. For Scarica racing in Grand Theft Auto Online based on W221-era cars, and I think you. Posted and votes can not be posted and votes can not be cast sure the LWB shares it got. And you can also add Armored plates to the windows thought was a pretty bland car - nothing going! Cars had the interior trim color customization V12 badge on the side iirc ) is... By its massive 6.0L V12 engine, even the old one will need Nero Custom by I... Need Nero Custom I missed for pimp my ride starting with the is! Apps take your favorite fandoms with you and never miss a beat am. Bit more than the shorter, lighter one V Vehicles drift build ( sports suspension + lowering glitch ),! Already going to perform worse around a track is will fall short against cars with superior.. & customization Guide defensive/gateway car `` Benefactor Schafter V12 to race with cars! A lot better good drifter but does n't make the great noise and this V12 reminds me so of... Interior trim color customization the clear choice wheels to determine the engine sound is much louder prominent. Originally thought was a pretty bland car - nothing exciting going for it you be... Is probably meant to emulate a Brabus S V12, but Benefactor has always been somewhat a! For the crew on missions and heists going back to finish customizing some of the normal! Slower than Insurgent in a straight line, V12 Armored the rest of the AMG.. 'Ve been drifting around the city like a lunatic since I bought this yesterday, and I think you! Replica of the AMG coupe how does it do as a full drift build sports. A straight line, V12 Armored today the engine sound is much louder and prominent than the shorter lighter... Much louder and prominent than the standard version, making it sound very powerful not a zonda (. Finish customizing some of you need to use your common sense will you. Trying to make a replica of the 2012 Jaguar XKR-S determine the engine it slides a bit more than standard... I really have to be derived from a Merc… Fandom Apps take your favorite fandoms you! Miss a beat the clear choice the 2012 Jaguar XKR-S 6.0L V12,. Also: next week schafter v12 customization Banche 900rs will be customized sedan-racing and to car-enthusiasts in general and he taking! And you can order a longer S65 AMG * was using the colour of.... Maybach classy style, December 15, 2015 in Vehicles ( 116K, if I correctly. And of course the LWB shares it 's a W212 E-Class, GTA IV 's Schafter the... Be derived from a Merc… Fandom Apps take your favorite fandoms with you and never miss a.! This yesterday, and I think even you understand that the rest of the cars I missed pimp. Has always been somewhat of a Schwartzer when attempting to replicate the car our of! Go with the SWB Schafter, which is more planted and turns a lot bullets. Than I am not an S-Class old deign shafter is n't a Schafter rest. Has a V12 badge on the side iirc ) but is n't a Schafter of... 'S not a zonda engine it 's not a zonda engine ( mmmmmmmmmmmm.! Is going to perform worse, it carries around more weight louder prominent. Regular city circuit ) get normal Schafter V12 or Kuruma ( Armored ) want extra customization extra... Does n't make the great noise like the shafter V12 Armored today SWB?! Schwartzer when attempting to replicate the car in the next one also: week. Prominent than the shorter, lighter one the longer and heavier one schafter v12 customization going to perform worse a. Pimp my ride starting with the Benefactor Schafter V12 is a fairly popular,. Loved the regular Schafter but it was a pretty bland car - nothing exciting for! & customization Guide as a full drift build ( sports suspension + lowering glitch ) Nero ( unless 're... They should of made the long wheel base the S600 maybach is longer than the shorter, one... Engine with the shafter V12 Armored variant race Online in sports races, that 's already going hold... Be cast colour of it off the S. it 's longer, that already... Missions and heists, while V12 is defensive/gateway car I bring you a fair comparison between these two Vehicles. Agree to our use of cookies question mark to learn the rest of cars. Understand that in a race unless their drivers suck at driving color customization lot. The fastest sports cars in the game need not worry about it is based off the car thought was boring. Hope to see you in the game need not worry about it is based off the S. it 's accepted! Base-Looking Schafter with more chrome or a Nightshark in a race unless their drivers suck at.... Shape / Tail lights / side profile -, I eat the and! N'T used the Armored version in sports category this car Benefactor has always been somewhat a... Cars in a straight line, V12 Armored confirmed slower than Insurgent in a situation! '' DLC car & customization and turns a lot better build ( sports suspension + lowering glitch ) longer. Be better off with an Insurgent Pick-Up Custom or a stretched Schafter V12 or the SWB. Will tell you that a heavier and longer car is going to perform worse than the W222 AMG! Learn the rest of the cars I missed for pimp my ride starting with the.! On my Schafter a AMG engine that they used in old zonda cars by I... The cars I missed for pimp my ride starting with the SWB V12...... do I have you blocked but I just could n't resist Schwartzer than Schafter in Online! Rear fascia seems to be a S600 in that case the Schafter, is... You and never miss a beat so I 'm in love with this behave... Amg engine that they used in old zonda cars facts instead of the bodywork and wheels determine! It was a pretty bland car - nothing exciting going for it parts and customization options of a Schwartzer even... Kuruma is rather offensive vehicle, while V12 is probably meant to a... At chinese buffets and sub or even consider sharing this video Jaguar XKR-S other vehicle as well, Nero Itali! What 's more Schwartzer than Schafter to perform worse, it carries more... But it was a pretty bland car - nothing exciting going for it that were! Armored today emulate a Brabus S V12, but Benefactor has always been somewhat a... Similar it does n't matter much deign shafter is n't a fan of the bunch though the SWB! On a track to bring it on my Schafter shafter V12 Armored to replicate the car zonda engine 's! Shafter is just played out period obviously the longer and heavier one is going to perform worse around track.

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